Wednesday, June 18, 2008

The Chin

So, as you can see by the results of the poll in the previous post, most people think of Brent's chin as being weaker-than-average.

I bring this up because of this image in Maid of the Mist:

Brent's chin is even weaker than usual here. Maybe it was a slip of the Cintiq pen.

I also bring it up because I wanted to make sure that the following panel is the joke I actually thought it was, despite some commenters thinking that Jade was being 100% sincere when she told Brent he had his father's chin (I don't think so).

This is still my favorite drawing of Brent, partly because it reminds me of Terry Colon's work :)


fox said...

pvponline: I have removed pvpmakesmesad from my daily bookmarks. No amount of constructive criticism is worth the bad parts of that site.


Oh dear we've lost him :( what did we do wrong?

How about change the focus of the blog to Paul Southworth or Dave Kellet? I mean how many comics can you make about a duck walking on water. He really needs to start that second strip and cut back on Sheldon.

aaaantoine said...

Eh. Won't stop me from visiting.

Not that I dislike PvP or anything. I just like to see it from other perspectives.

Sage said...

Wow I just read Scott's twitter so was it a) our questioning of Scratch's speech, the chin survey, or Francis' glasses? Oh well, as long as Evil Scott doesn't assault the site.

The picture of Brent you put 2nd was actually one of my favorite strips of PVP that I have seen and I like that version of Brent. I genuinley like all the new character models and actually am excited about Cole and Brent changing if they do. Not to say the drawing is bad now, but if you give me a taste of the good stuff, i want it all.

Trafayz said...

I know twitter is about sound bites since most of us have ADD nowadays, but I wonder what he thinks the "bad parts" are.

I suppose we'll find out eventually.

Anonymous said...

pvponline: I have removed pvpmakesmesad from my daily bookmarks. No amount of constructive criticism is worth the bad parts of that site.

Yeah. Right. The day Kurtz can resist reading online comments about his work is the day pigs fly. He'll be back.

Anonymous said...

I can't believe Kurtz would do this to us after everything we've done for him.

Oh well, atleast other webcomic creators will continue to read our opinions and hopefully learn from Scott's mistakes and successes.

R.W.McGee said...

Probably a good choice on his part.

It is for readers to critique and discuss, and for creators to create. I never though that his visits were productive for him. Getting grammar and style corrections might be useful...but I saw a tendency, culminating in the Scratch arc, to second guess himself based on our input. I don't think any creator wants to find themselves at that point.

Not, I suspect, that we will never see Scott here again. The draw of familiar websites is strong, I have found.

Anonymous said...

I agree he'll be back. He's too much of an egomaniac to just let anyone continue to criticize him unchecked.

The sad truth is I bet most of us that post here wouldn't have even been aware of the site if he didn't keep posting about it in his blog, the webcasts, the forum etc.

Sage said...
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Sage said...

While i don't believe he'll be back because we're at all important to any part of his creative process we are one of the places he can use as a barometer so he may look as well as his site and emails, but not necessarily comment again

Hey if reading this stuff and second guessing himself (or other people third guessing his second guessing) is driving him crazy then I can see him wanting to not take a look. I say throw yourself into what you do and do it balls to the wall, let us discuss what you do, and like I said MANY months ago just do what you think is the best because its ultimately your creation.

After we have every right to talk about what you produce and share with us, but you have every right to do whatever the fuck you want especially if its your main means of support.

Sage said...

Btw two things from his twitter post. First, it was first put up about 8 hours ago around when FSM put up his Brent chin post interesting . . . .:)

Second Scott apparently has or had a 2nd bout with MRSA which is something not to fuck with. Even if you're not reading it best wishes to you and ur health Scott

Jai said...

Men are such fragile creatures.

I suppose Mr. Kurtz has had enough of his work being closely scrutinized and interpreted differently than he intended (That's a reference to Jade genuinely thinking that Brent has a manly, imposing chin - according to SK's vision of a "teasing lie" being impossible for Jade to produce through her haze of true love. What a weird fucking thing that was to find out. Just how many PVP strips with obvious, solid, but unintentional punchlines are there, then? The end of the paintball story is probably among them). Since SK is done with this "site", I'm not going to bother trying to treat him with kid gloves. The onus is certainly not on me if he doesn't like parts of the site, so HA! Eat that, TFSM! Just you try to wash that damn spot out! ;)

The reasons for why SK is leaving us are surely obvious to the knowledgable. I've always hoped (And used to believe) better of him, but he has his own life and viewpoint. I won't bother getting into it, beyond expressing my incredulity that "no amount of constructive criticism is worth the bad parts". No reward is worth this, huh, SK? I'll keep that in mind while I next need to bust someone out of the Death Star detention block. It's not like "the bad parts" involve, you know, something genuinely bad like baby-juggling or making boots out of live cats. SK didn't bother to explain this choice rationally ("Here's why I feel it's such a terrible place, despite all the times I've acted like it was a worthwhile place. Because it's not enough to just say, 'Oh, well now there's something bad there.'") and he didn't just give the news simply ("I'm afraid I just won't be going there again. The end."), he decided to insult TFSM vaguely instead (And seemingly out of the blue). Oh, the wacky vagaries of SK. You just never know what comes next.

The part of me that hopes there is still good in SK (Ok, no more Star Wars references for now) feels like a jilted lover, and wonders if maybe he's found some OTHER place for constructive criticism that is simply nicer and prettier or something. That part of me wants to eat a lot of chocolate.

paulsouthworth said...

Not that I'd particularly want your wrath directed towards ME, but Fox may have a point! Why not open it up to other webcomics? Seems a little myopic to focus your ire on just one when there are so many comics out there that are SO MUCH WORSE than PvP. Plus there really are some interesting insights around here in between the petty snarking and merciless nitpicking.

Wouldn't it be great to see this blog turn into a genuine, intelligent discussion on webcomics as a whole instead of just bitching about four panels of PvP every day?

I, for one, submit that it would.

Moo said...

An interesting idea Paul. Maybe we can branch out to other webcomics that FSM also enjoys such as XKCD, Achewood, Octopus Pie, Starslip and Ugly Hill.

Though maybe we can make it a habit to also mention what we do like about a strip and not just focusing on what we don't like.

Sage said...


I'd change it to ARTISTS are such fragile creatures. From everything I've seen from Buckley to the gentleman who couldn't get by the name to look at the site. Kurtz was less so, but he did flailed a bit, to borrow his words.

I for one would love to talk about Anders Loves Marie as that is the one comic I have found through this site and XKCD is good but some of the math references go flying over my head :).

I think ovreall we are a pretty good site and that we do mention a fair amount of good stuff as for most of the past month most of us said the strips wee good and we didn't have anything to complain about.

Caren W. said...

@sage I'm curious, do you prefer the digital or traditional artwork of Anders Loves Marie? It reminds me of when John Allison of Scary-Go-Round changed a few times before settling for the more traditional look.

Now You've Hurt His Feelings said...

Monsieur Faux McCloud, did you forget that Kurtz explicitly stated that his intention was to have Jade be serious about Brent having a strong chin? I think you forgetting that might be what got him so cranky.

now you've hurt his feelings said...

I also think that Brent's mouth going higher was an attempt to make the chin look more pronounced and therefore stronger. It kind of works, but I think what is needed is to have more of a right angle at the bottom. It's otherwise easy to see it as the chin somehow ending at his lip.

TheOriginalJes said...

re: pvponline: I have removed pvpmakesmesad...(pvpmakesmesadanonymous) - PREACHYNESS AHEAD, proceed at your own risk -

I don't know about anyone else, but I only know about this blog because SK linked to it. I tried to stop coming here. Really, I truly did. I found the off-topic, non-constructive overtly personal Scott-bashing from some of the anonymous posters just too annoying. After all, a man's personal life is his own business.

But, when I returned to the Halfpixel forums, I found no threads for critiquing pvp. Every once in a while, I still look to find nothing worthwhile.

Where'd the FUN go?!

Thankfully, a lot of you had stepped up to make this site truly addictive. So much so that I visit r.w.mcgee's BradMakesMeSad site hoping for an update.

And when SK jumps in to comment, what can I say, it just makes the geekiness worthwhile.

But, you would think that after 10 successful years; SK would be a little too mature to make a public huff about taking his ball and going home. After all of his talk about appreciating criticism and his ability to stand up to immaturity; he turns out to be the Lindsay Lohan of web-comics. I'm very disappointed.

I guess SK saw this site as his own web-comic papparazzo. He couldn't wait to get in front of the lense. And now he hates the intrusion on his feelings. [Love me, hate you, love me, hate you.]

And now, for me, this site is better than the comic it's built upon. I only read the one to get to the other. Pvponline is my homework for the day. I'm actually glad its gone to M-F. I hate studying on the weekends.

Maybe pvp has gotten a little too big for SK. Now, since he isn't sifting this blog every 5 minutes, maybe he can just get on with making amusing comics.

-- ok. I think I've bitched enough now. Thanks for suffering with me.

Anonymous said...

I guess we really need to step up our fawning fanboy quota to tease Scott back. Maybe we can ship in some of the forum regulars. They do a great job.

R.W.McGee said...

As far as 'Bradmakesmesad' goes, if somebody who is as devoted to and interested in Evil Inc. as TFSM is in PvP, then I would turn the blog over to them for updates.

The only webcomics I read religiously enough to feel I can comment on them constructively are PA, PvP, Order of the Stick, and Achewood.

So, if somebody wants to manage the Evil Inc. blog, let me know! =)

Also, as theoriginaljes said, I don't really come here hoping Kurtz is around. That was sort of cool when it happened, but I am mainly interested in the insight of people like Sage, Theoriginaljes, Jai, Ti Chan, and of course TFSM...amongst others.

Also, Paul, you seem to be acting like this site is designed to punish Kurtz or PvP...the reason we don't spend a lot of time discussing the web-comics that are MUCH WORSE (Although Ctrl-Alt-Del had it's 5 minutes! Rim shot!) is that most of the people here seem to be more interested in deconstructing a 'good' comic to figure out how it could be better...not just bashing on a bad comic out of spite.

Sage said...

@ Caren W.

I like her artistic style better, but the strip she put up yesterday was absolutley beautiful, and I actually felt for Anders and Maria in both cases. Renee is just a great artist and could do classical pieces well in addition to cartooning.

The only problem I has is she sometimes switches timeframes without indication and that throws you off for a while until you figure it out. Also, the Swedish to English to American culture translation sometimes confuses, but hey shes from Sweden, its just a different culture to grow up in.

I dont think Scott used us to that far of a fawning end since we have never been a fanboy site. I still would like to know what ticked him off though.

@fanboy anonymus.

There is that poster where her picture has multi-colored hair, we may be able to lure her, shes pretty supportive.

Sage said...

@ RW
I really enjoy this site because there are arguements and discussions with people where the points make sense and are cogent even if you don't agree with it. Also, I have learned a good bit, mostly on the art end, on what to look for. I didn't really need scott either, for as nice it was for him to pop in to explain something, he did have moments where he "flailed" as badly as he thought FSM did.

The webcomics I am reading are CAD, PA, PVP, whiteboard, VGcats, DIng and Anders L maria.

Also, for a 3 minute weekely review Zero Punctuation is funny as well as Yahtzee, even though hes more negative than any of us hope to be, is brilliant in his reviews, even if you dont plan on playing

Ymazinf said...

I don't know if it was the "chin" thing. Though the more I think about it, by having Jade's character unable to make an accurate observation about Brent because she is so in love made the character much less real to me.

I would have been happy to believe that she told a little white lie, as it makes so so so much more sense in context and doesn't mean that she doesn't love him.

But then after years of reading the comic it's hard for me to understand why anybody would like Brent enough to be with him, let alone Jade, so there you go.

Anonymous said...

That picture of his chin looks like it is smaller based in perspective. This site sucks.

Anonymous said...

Heh, yeah, the difference a few degrees in 'looking slightly away from camera' and 'looking slightly towards camera' can be huge sometimes. Let's pray he never looks directly out of frame or his chin may block out the sun!

Stephen Geigen-Miller said...
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Stephen Geigen-Miller said...
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Stephen Geigen-Miller said...

I'm getting no love from Blogger today. Third time's the charm?


I'm surprised by Scott's decision, especially since the anonymous personal attacks died down quite a while ago.

I wonder if he misinterpreted the poll, rather than the chin-related post itself, as a cheap shot about his art.

Regardless, it's unfortunate. I think Scott would continue to benefit from reading the many thoughtful and constructive comments here. At the end of the day, of course, it's his business what sites he reads, and where he gets his feedback from.

The webcomics I follow?

Achewood, Diesel Sweeties, Dinosaur Comics, Girl Genius, Octopus Pie, Order of the Stick and Questionable Content.

And the less well-known but just as worthwhile Galaxion (, Lethargic Lad ( and Pigtails & Potbellies (

Oh, and I wrote Xeno's Arrow, which is part of

Anonymous said...

What Scott Kurtz forgets is we're not all just fans, some of us are fellow cartoonists posting annoynmously to avoid reprisal from Scotts overzealous fans.

We're not taking shots at the guy because he's more popular than we'll ever be. We're just discussing and anaylizing the strip, seeing what Scott is doing right, what he's doing wrong and where we feel he could improve.

It's a real shame he won't be taking part in the community anymore. I think there's a lot of useful feedback and whether he takes it onboard or not, it's definitely worth reading atleast.

As for the suggestion of discussing other webcomics, I'm all for it. There's a lot of great webcomics at the moment and I'd enjoy reading what the others have to say.

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