Tuesday, November 25, 2008

Just, no.

Today's is the first strip that I believe should not exist. I'm not even going to link to it.

While not openly hateful (and I do not believe that SK is trying to be hateful), it promotes negative stereotypes; it's retarded to the point of almost being offensive.

(SK: "Asshole." FSM: "Fuck you. It's a terrible strip.").


Anonymous said...

Yeah, this is looking to be a god-awful storyline.

R.W.McGee said...

I'm not the most politically correct guy on earth, but this is heading down a really, really terrible path.

What next, will Brent and Cole start hitting on Max to see who he likes more?

All that is not even mentioning the fact that this whole plot-line makes no sense compared to how these characters have previously behaved AND that calling another guy 'girlfriend' is an unbelievably weak punchline.

There is a bright spot this week, though, finally a new Penny-Arcade podcast!

awa64 said...

I'm not particularly offended by this storyline yet.

On the other hand, that's mainly because I'm expecting the conclusion and aesop of the storyline to be pointing out how stupid Brent and Cole are acting about the whole thing. If that's NOT what happens, I imagine my opinion will become very harshly negative.

Bryce said...

When did pvp turn into Friends?

Brett Schiller (Sage) said...

FSM you forgot
SK: "I got a lot of positive email on this from the gay community and they thought this strip was funny"
Anyone with a brain: "Who would have thought this strip was funny no matter your race, religion, or sexual orientation?"

The Trouble said...


heh yeah, I've always enjoyed the "Some people emailed me saying they liked the comic therefore all criticism is invalid" response.

Melomel said...


"Came out to Brent and ME!" ME ME ME.

You would not say "he came out to I," you'd say "he came out to me." It is no different when you have an additional object.

Freakin' illiterates.

Kate said...

I'm a long-time fan of PVP and I usually disagree, respectfully, with the things that are said on PVPMMS but as a gay reader, I'm more than slightly bothered by the direction this is taken. Renewed interest in Max suddenly because he's maybe gay? Never mind the fact that the sudden gay-ing of Max, even implied, seems out of character and really poorly sprung.

It's one thing for Francis, who is a teenager, to wig out about Teh Ebil Gay. It's very much another for two grown adults to act like six year olds because HE LIKED ME! NO ME! NO ME! Grow up and get over yourselves.

It started down the bad road when Cole's dislike of Max--which I always understood, because Cole is just about the most self-conscious man in the universe and Max is confident to the point of arrogance--went from being just that (dislike) to a secret fifteen-plus-year grudge. And now, we've got The Gay Plot. Like Kurtz realized he never did a gay plot and decided this was the day to start.

I get bad juju from this whole thing. Like whoa.

Brett Schiller (Sage) said...

@ Kate
This is PVPMMS why are you RESPECTFULLY disagreeing? That isn't like most of the PVP fans who come here. :)

Even though this will end up in "wacky misunderstanding sitcom situation #5" territory have the actions of any of the main PVP guys been likeable since Cole started chiding Marcy and Francis on sex? (I liked the move to Francis pronouncing his love for Marcy as you liked the kid after being the immature teenager he is suppored to be)

Also, I have a gay friend (I also have a black friend too to continue the stereotype of a white guy with minority friends :) )and my fiancee has a gay cousin, and the one thing they DON'T want to be is treated differently good or bad because of their sexual orientation. They just want to be people.

Also, besides the serious and pretentious stuff i wrote above, why can't Cole just hate Max because Max is an ass? I don't think there was even complaints at PVPMMS at he do go through a lot of the strip. I can't wait for the panda to be gay (he didn't like the female after all) and for him and Max to run the other magazine against PVP.

TheOriginalJes said...

I don't find the strip to be all that great. But, I think you guys are missing the point far more that SK (even you FSM).

1st @ RW - The girls will most likely step in to straighten (ok, slight pun intended) the whole thing out.

2nd et. al. - The point might just be that something *this stupid* is exactly what it takes to get Cole and Brent to look beyond the annoying surface impressions of Max to take a good look at the person inside.

THEN they can hate him for who he *really* is. As, I'm sure, we all may.

Believe it or not, this is a very realistic thing that I've seen actually happen.

And, again, had it been original, it would have been very clever. But, since the shows like Friends, Frazier, and Will And Grace made this so common; the strip is just ordinary (i.e. safe).

Scott said...

You guys need to stop being such fags about these gay comics.

Trust me, as a straight male, I frequently fight as strongly for the affection of gay males as I do straight females. It's an ego thing. We all want to be desired. It's built into our DNA I guess.

My buddy Chris is totally gay for me. I know it. And I'm totally gay for him. Also John Barrowman but that's another story all together.

One day, I will find the time-rift and step into the world of Torchwood and have a three way wedding with Gwen and Captain Jack.

Happy ThanksGAYving everyone!

Scott said...

For clarification I'm referring to my friend Chris who is gay. Not my friend KRIS who is straight (but still totally gay for me).

Brett Schiller (Sage) said...

@ Scott
I fight for the affection of my FRIENDS not just because they are gay. And for all those who want to make the joke the philos love (love of my friends) compared to eros love (love of my fiancee who I want to procreate with at the drop of a hat, hubba hubba).

Its just ridiculous that he became theyre friend, from all indication, BECAUSE he is gay. Not because they were wrong about why they hated Max in the first place and realized they were idiots, but because they think the man prefers the company of men (in the words of Homer Simpson "who doesn't?!"

Brett Schiller (Sage) said...

and no i will not stop being the English word for cigarette Mr Scott, no matter how hard you try!!!

R.W.McGee said...

I bet your gay fans enjoy being called 'fags' for daring to criticize your comic strip Kurtz. That's so mature of you.

Oh, were you being ironical? It's tough to tell sometimes...

kurtz said...

R.W. McGee, you are so angry.

P.S. Calling a guy "girlfriend" is an awesome punchline.

I laughed.

Brandon said...

As a gay man, I don't know what insults me more: the strip itself, or the fact that Kurtz is trying to defend it by claiming that he understands-in any way whatsoever-what it's like to be gay. Of course I probably shouldn't be surprised, since it comes from a man who incorporated a hateful slur and a condescending comment about who he's supposedly "gay for" in the same damn sentence. It's great how he is able to co-opt a defining part of my life that has been a source of joy, love, hatred, self-loathing, oppression, and violence that he could never begin to understand. The only thing I love more than gay-bashing is little straight boys who try to sublimate the guilt from their own unresolved homophobia by overcompensating and acting "totally gay."

Scott said...


That's horseshit, dude. I never claimed to know what it's like to be gay. Stop it. The current storyline never even suggests that.

I am not homophobic. I am for gay marriage and gay adoption. You love who you love. Who gives a shit. This storyline is supposed to be stupid fun and has not even gotten anywhere near the realm of any serious commentary.

Cole and Brent are petty and selfish and flawed. Max is not. that's why they hate them. They can come up with whatever excuse they want. They can even misinterpret or invent new ones. The bottom line is they hate him because he's not as shitty as they are.

I can't believe you come into a forum that's all about hating me and my work and chastise me about contributing to hate.

Shame on you.

Brandon said...

1) Supporting gay rights and being homophobic are not mutually exclusive.

2) It was not the storyline that upset me half so much as the "defense," which is why there is only implicit commentary on the strip and detailed references to your comments. While I found both in bad taste, it was only with your comments that I felt the need to point out that you are out of touch. Case in point: what exactly do you mean when you say you are "totally gay" for another man? Or, do you not even bother to think about what it is you're actually saying?

3) I was not chastising you for contributing to hate. I was chastising you for contributing to misunderstanding, oppression, misrepresentation, and co-opting gay "culture." If you go back and read my post, you'll see that hate never once comes up as an issue.

4) If you really think this forum is all about hating you and your work, then you truly do not understand what it means to be a victim of hate.

And finally,

5) Shame on me? Really? I'm sorry, but in what sense is calling you out similar enough to the way gay people are treated to be hypocritical? Or do you not realize that that is what you are implying? Besides, I long ago became immune to attempts by straight white males to shame me into silence.

Allen said...


I agree with you that supporting gay rights does not make one necessarily not homophobic, but perhaps you could have phrased that better: Supporting gay rights to adoption and marriage does not mean that you don't espouse homophobic viewpoints with your language.

If you want to understand what we mean, Scott, the breakdown is this.

Whether or not you used it ironically, you said the phrase, "You guys need to stop being such fags about these gay comics." Now, in that, you used a disparaging tone, comparing our disagreement with your viewpoint to disfavor and negativity. However, you used the word "fag" to express this disfavorability. In your language you draw the interconnection between negativity and homosexuality. No matter how ironic the statement was intended, the language made it offensive by marginalizing an entire group of people, and contributing to the popularity of language that socially labels them and excludes them.

In the same way that calling a man a "pussy" is inherently degrading to women, calling a anyone a "fag" in a disparaging sense is degrading to homosexuals.

That is why he insisted you used a "hateful slur."

That doesn't actively contribute to hate. You're not voting yes for prop 8, or attacking someone based on an immutable orientation. No you're doing the worse thing, the more pervasive one. It's worse because you can do it without even noticing it. It's worse because it's not personal. It's passive, conversational, even socially acceptable, but it contributs to hate nonetheless.

Do you understand, or do you think I'm overreacting?

Scott said...

No I get it. I think everyone here knew I was joking and using shock value and now they're acting all fragile and offended.

I don't like that anyone has received hate or violence in their lives due to their sexual orientation. That sends my blood boiling.

The Wax Lion said...

As a gay reader, I wasn't fragile and offended by this. I just think it's kind of dumb. I flirt with my straight friends all the time, they flirt back, it's funny--because we all know we're kidding. This "he's totally gay for us" thing is just plain weird. Sorry, Scott, maybe it's different with you and your gay buds...

And I always thought they didn't like Max because he's kind of an arrogant and clueless dick, not because they're flawed and he's not. That seemed like reason enough to dislike him to me.

Allen said...

They knew you were using shock language, but they weren't acting offended. They were offended, and rightly so. Either you understand that the language you used was offensive, or you don't. There is no middle ground on this. You can't make it sound like people were overreacting by saying "they're acting all fragile and offended."

I understand, yes, you support gay rights and are offended by attempts to harm and undrmine the value of non-heterosexuals as people. But there are two types of heterosexism: individual heterosexism and institutional heterosexism.

You can fight both, but only one is hard to see.

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