Tuesday, June 9, 2009

Gogurt for Drunks

Art - The two frat boys were done well from a character design point with only the lack of a sclera on the guy on the left causing a minor distraction. Also, a good use of "camera angle" to pull back through glass to show Jase a Robbie there with the white lines not being too distracting.

One other thing I noticed if you look at 6/7/09, 6/8/09, and 6/9/09 Jase's nose changes from small and rounder, to bigger with a hook/point, to round with no point. It does change the shape of his face when you look at the differences of the three.

Story - Nothing much here, just a middle strip showing the progress of the product. Robbie does speak the truth though. The unintentional humor of the strip was that most focus groups do perform just like the one in the strip.

Just so you guys know commenting is turn back on for this strip, yesterday things were starting to go downhill and well it was the easiest way for me not to deal with it and things spiralling out of control when I was at work

On a side-note: From Scott's twitter. "it feels like "insert name of jerk being negative about Scott" is always followed by ".blogspot.com"" There is a jerk named PVPmakesmesad out there? Wow that is a coincidence.

32 comments:

Brett Schiller (Sage) said...

Hey guys OriginalJes asked to repost this:

As this is the first open post on the board, I'll use it. Sage, would you please re-post this if you don't find it too offensive?

@ Sage - I knew that the other post was about slow pour. That's the one I meant to respond to. The previous day's post has a very long critique (which from me, is admittedly [and stated therein {kurtz}] harsh). In fact, it seems to have set someone off.

@ kurtz - say what you will about my life. I am a fan of PVP. I AM an asshole. I have fun sharing with and learning from the core group at PVPMMS.

Artist who cannot tolerate feedback shouldn't open themselves up to interaction with the fans. The best ones don't.

Also, an artist shouldn't claim to welcome negative feedback, then pitch hissies when it comes.

Go back to the earlier posts of PVPMMS, and anyone will find that I was one of the first to defend tardiness and imperfections in a FREE product. I still try, in most cases to limit my comments to likes and dislikes. I also try to limit those comments to a community which the offended party has repeatedly claimed to refuse to revisit.

You will also find an open declaration stating exactly what upset me, personally, from Scott Kurtz. But, I remained a fan.

What you won't find, are responses from the author to any reasonable critique of the comic known as PVP.

But, you will find schoolyard comebacks and intentionally mis-directing comments, which even the fan-boy's stopped supporting.

If you want to disagree with a comment, let's debate the issue. But, do refrain from openers like "Why don't you like me?", or "What did I ever do to you?" The regulars here have worked very hard to weed out the more immature element of blog commenting. (I won't name names so as not to be inflammatory.)

Just remember, every time you blog about your likes and dislikes about another comic, movie, music, tv series, or game; you do exactly what many of us here do.

TheOriginalJes said...

Scott had a reply posted to that one that can be viewed on the RSS feed

Brett Schiller (Sage) said...

Or just go the Where's Zeddmore post, the whole convo is there :).

TheOriginalJes said...

about the strip -

I don't think the joke was unintentional. That's all I got.

about the other stuff - this is the last thing I wanted to say...

There's a Dennis Miller rant that talks about giving as good as you get. It talks about put-downs like a dense jungle. It ends with, "...and if you should get bested, you sharpen you verbal machete and get ready for the next batch of thicket."

R.W.McGee said...

In summary; Kurtz wants us to feel sorry for him.

I don't understand how somebody can come here, read posts that generally are the DEFINITION of a critique (liked this, didn't like this) and accuse people of 'spitting out bile.'

Although it's true there ARE negative posts here, and several months ago you could also find troll/flame-bait posts...most of that has since been cleaned out.

Look, when I say, for example; 'most of Kurtz' storylines these days are rote, cliche, and boring' and you happen to skim through and catch that...you have three options:

A) Ignore me.
B) Try to improve your plotting.
C) Whine about 'your internal voice' and 'being persecuted' on a message board.

For my money you would do better with A or B.

To be fair, I am not a fan of PvP. I used to be a fan of PvP a few years ago, and now I am a fan of PVPMMS in much the same way I am a fan of MST3K. I'm not here looking to troll, or bait anybody, and I'll even try to put up a constructive critique from time to time, but I stop by more for the PVPMMS community, then for any specific PvP strip.

So, if you want to accuse me of being 'mean' or 'negative' that's your prerogative. In a wider sense, however, my opinion is that most of the posters on this site are generally eager to defend aspects of your work, to be positive, to compliment story-lines that work for them, and in general are pretty patient considering how often you come over here and deliver a tantrum of some sort.

As to your claim to welcome negative feedback. Sure. As long as it comes from a friend or a fellow web-cartoonist whom you like and/or feel is successful you might. In general, I get the sense you do not welcome it. Which is a perfectly human reaction.

rdy said...

What annoys me somewhat about this situation is despite repeatedly telling us he is staying away from or is done with this site, the drama occurs when Kurtz goes back on his word.

We don't disseminate the posts throughout the internet and we don't publicise the site any and every chance we get. We discuss our opinions. And that goes on quite smoothly until SK inevitably shows up yet again screaming injustice and trying to act like the paradigm of innocence.

TheOriginalJes said...

So, what is the fat content of a Yogenbrau? And, how is that going to effect Jase's waistline?

kurtz said...

R.W. McGee,

Every single time you write a post you have to remind everyone how you're SO OVER PvP. Yet, you read it every day and you come here and comment on it every day.

You like PvP. And you get a thrill out of coming here and tearing down what I do. And as much as you say it bothers you when I post here, you REALLY love it when I do.

You just want to PRETEND that it's such a lark that you participate here. Pretty much all of you do. You can claim I have an ego all you want. We're at a site dedicated to hyper analyzing not only my work, but my personal ethics and motives.

This is practically the definition of obsession.

I was at a comic/gaming store today and one of the guys there asked me "Are you Scott Kurtz?" I said "Yeah." he said "Cool. I love your work, although I can't stand Miranda." I said "HA! Well, I guess she's easy to hate." He said "yeah, she reminds me of so many girls I know."

Then he turns to another guy who runs the store and says "You sell his books here." and the clerk said "Oh really? Okay."

The 2nd guy could give two fucking shits about who I am. That man. THAT man, truly is the way YOU guys claim to be. Not really caring. Not fans. Disconnected.

So please, drop this bullshit about how you're not invested or readers or fans or obsessed.

It makes you all sound REALLY stupid.

You know why you're here. I know why I'm here. Everybody just fucking own it.

kurtz said...

And for the record, McGee, I don't want anyone to feel sorry for me. You should feel HAPPY for me if anything. I got a pretty good life.

What I asked Brett, and I'll ask all of you too, is why you do what you do here when you know that on some level, it really bums me out.

For you to dedicate time to coming here to discuss how what I do, what I LOVE to do is substandard and "makes you sad." to put that out there is kinda shitty.

I'm just saying.

kurtz said...

And yeah, I admit that if you can't draw or write yourself, I'm generally not interested in you becoming a part of my creative process.

There's a collective "you guys" that is a global opinion or trend that of course I pay attention to. I would be a horrible business person not to.

But for the most part, I'm interested in improving my work, and that doesn't happen by heeding random input from everyone who posts a comment or writes an email.

You're entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't make your opinion spun gold I should scoop up and take home to dwell upon.

TheOriginalJes said...

-"You're entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't make your opinion spun gold I should scoop up and take home to dwell upon."-

So what is this, then? If you're the better man, just stop.

R.W. - What's up? I really don't recall exactly why this is so personal for you. But, you did just bait him into that.

kurtz said...

Jes,

Sometimes I do. Sometimes I read it and get bummed out but never post. Sometimes I ignore you guys and get sent a clip of a comment from a reader.

Regardless, I'm human. Sometimes I come here. Sometimes I read. Sometimes I get upset, and sometimes I post and challenge you.

For the record "Just ignore me" is not a good enough answer to the question "Why are you being such a jerk to me?"

I just want you to realize that. Essentially what I'm saying is "this site bums out and you guys are actively spending time writing stuff that makes me bummed." and your response is "Ignore it and go away because we like doing it and we don't want you ruining it."

kurtz said...

Here's a point that I would like Brett or anyone to address:

I feel this site is about you guys getting of publically throwing tomatoes at me.

You guys claim it's just about community and enjoyment of this particular discussion.

If that's the case, why not just take this to a private forum? Why put it on blogspot for people to find and for me to come back to?

It seems to me that if what you all claim is true, you would be better served taking this private.

R.W.McGee said...

What I asked Brett, and I'll ask all of you too, is why you do what you do here when you know that on some level, it really bums me out.

because I enjoy analyzing the webcomic and am not generally thinking about how said analysis will effect you...or even thinking that you will read it.

It just amazes you that somebody could POSSIBLY have an interest in a piece of creative work, and NOT care about who created it.

Yeah, from time to time I feel 'over' PvP and read it less. And then sometimes I follow it daily. There was a period about two months ago where I stopped visiting your site for a month, and then I have followed it again after somebody sent me the 'Ombusdmen' link.

The fact is, I have had similar discussions in my life about Ayn Rand, The Wheel of Time, Salinger, Penny Arcade, The Matrix Trilogy, and diverse other topics.

As a former English major I derive a lot of pleasure out of debating the merits or problems with various literary works.

What is the one difference between those and PVPMMS? That YOU are here. I don't interact with the creators when discussing or analyzing those other works. There is no medium for them to have their feelings hurt, or impacted in any way.

As for being obsessed, no. I generally stop by your site about two-three times a week, and PVPMMS about three-four times a week. A total of about an hour spent on both sites for posting and reading per week.

By my math that leaves me with about 167 hours every week devoted to work, family, and entertainment, and 1 to your webcomic. So, I'm not the second guy in the store...it's just something I read once in a while.

So, in conclusion, just don't visit this site...it solves all the problems! You won't be hurt by it, and we won't have to spend our time with all this drama...which is increasing my weekly time here well over an hour this week =P

R.W.McGee said...

I feel this site is about you guys getting of publically throwing tomatoes at me.

You guys claim it's just about community and enjoyment of this particular discussion.

If that's the case, why not just take this to a private forum? Why put it on blogspot for people to find and for me to come back to?

It seems to me that if what you all claim is true, you would be better served taking this private.


well, first of all, taking it private would prevent other people who wanted to discuss PvP from finding this site and joining in. It's not like any of us knew each other BEFORE the site was created, why should it be taken privately now?

Second of all, on a day-to-day basis NOBODY here 'throws tomatoes at you.' We discuss PvP, a webcomic. We don't discuss you personally AT ALL...unless you show up here for one of these drama fests.

Brett Schiller (Sage) said...

@ Scott/Kurtz

Simple answer: I like talking about PVP, there isn't the forum bullshit that usually goes on(flame wars ironically, trolls, etc.)
it is about one subject so you don't have to sift through random tangets about Cylons or X-men or whatever (no I don't care if I spelled Cylons wrong), and I like the general community.

Plus taking this to a forum, when it was already made here (plus I can't do anything but post on the main page) would be waaay too much time and effort then writing a 5 minute like/dislike about art and story.

Plus have you seen our Alexa ranking 1.38 millionth website, it is basically like we are talking about it in private :)

R.W.McGee said...

Plus have you seen our Alexa ranking 1.38 millionth website, it is basically like we are talking about it in private

For realz. You would think we were trying to shame him in public the way he goes on about it. The fact is we have like 18 regulars here, one of whom is Scott himself...it's not exactly CNN.com

Brett Schiller (Sage) said...

BTW anyone want to do their own private over/under on posts when I'm traveling home? It's a 50 minute drive plus 30 minutes with the fiancee, this is the 17th comment so I'll set it at 10.

I'm going with the over.

Brett Schiller (Sage) said...

oops make that 19th now.

R.W.McGee said...

I'm going to eat dinner in a few minutes, and I think TheOriginalJes is taking a breather, so I will take the under...even though to do so I have to add another post. Hmmm.

kelly said...

I thought dressing up Frat Boy #2 like Bluto was a nice touch.

rdy said...

"You're entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't make your opinion spun gold I should scoop up and take home to dwell upon."

And guess what, nobody asked you to. I know you keep trying to blow that 'entitlement' bugle but for people who you keep telling that you're never going to come back to/read, we've been doing a pretty lousy job of feeling entitled with our response of "Yeah, okay." and making zero effort to contact you and force our spun gold on you.

JSC said...

Here's a third party take on this situation.

I've read PVP for probably 8 years now. Every day before work I read Trudeau, Meddick, and Kurtz. SK is a very talented writer and that's why I read. Like all comic strip writers, he'll have some off days.

This site, to me, seems quite constructive in it's criticism. SK seems to have remarkably thin skin. Remarkably so. Perhaps this is due to the title of the blog, who knows. But every other comment seems to be about what people like. SK, doesn't any of the criticism seem at all constructive to you? Don't you think there is room to grow and stretch based on this?

Honestly, I came here this week because I thought some of the strips were a bit weak. Didn't like the first pour happening the day after the real-estate closing. Didn't like the first pour comic at all. And what I found was remarkably constructive criticism, much less critical than I would have been and an _extremely_ defensive SK kind of making a fool of himself for not staying on the sideline.

You are a very talented artist, SK, that's why I have read you for 8 years and will continue to do so. So just stay above the fray. Or learn from the comments.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

And sorry that pvpmakesmesad makesyousad.

JC

Brett Schiller (Sage) said...

RW I owe you a beer if you get to Philly :)

TheOriginalJes said...

Sorry, guys. I wasn't exactly taking a breather. This year, I have a new job. Which came with a new 50 mile commute of my own. I just finished dinner and am settling down to a re-run of Rocky Balboa. (So sue me.) Lots of similes and metaphors ahead.

Scott,

Scott,

I get what you're saying. And, I don't know why some others can't just let things drop. And, I realize that you're at a disadvantage due to the PVP-centric nature of the site. Let me try to explain why I come here. I can't really apologize if it hurts. But, I hope it doesn't.

What happens here isn't like Kevin Smith touring the colleges and impressing the slacker-fans with his "awesome being". This is like the corner bar. And, lately, Sage has been pullin' the taps. When he and FSM aren't around, we help ourselves. The point is, here, you came in the same door we did. Even if I did follow you in.

At the end of a round, I like to look back on it and learn something. But, then, I enjoy watching people. I'm also a regular poster at Brad Guiger's Courting-Disaster, thanks in part to you.

We don't expect you to draw our ideas in your comic. But it is cool to have the creator of something we like check in.

But, we do expect that those who join in treat everyone as equals. Bearing in mind, some of us Yankees sound more harsh than we actually intend to.

But, I see you coming here, doing to others exactly what's been upsetting you. Just because we aren't drawing an original story for display, doesn't mean we aren't doing something, here. More on that, later. Please bear with me.

Today, you wrote, "And yeah, I admit that if you can't draw or write yourself, I'm generally not interested in you becoming a part of my creative process."

If that was true, you simply wouldn't log on here. Whether you log on, or someone else emails you; you still think about what goes on, here.

This is going to sound so cliche, but you're one of us. We're all kids on the same bus. But, you don't seem to want that. You even fight it. And, when you get angry, you do tell us how much better you are than us (by this, I mean you've lumped all of your fans together again).

Let me tell you a something about me. From 2003 through 2008, I was working as the senior draftsman in a civil engineering firm. In that time, I've (personally) designed houses, streets, , sub-divisions, commercial/industrial real estate sewers, stormwater management systems, and boat docks.

Much of what I've designed has been built, and should remain standing for at least 100 years. Millions of dollars have been spent on my ideas. For some people, that's special. For others, it's mundane. Can you do it?

You see, my opinion means something to me. I don't think of myself as "everyone else". I come here to contribute and learn. Being dismissed en-masse is a great way to make me feel like my time and thoughts have been wasted and un-appreciated. When I see it happening on this site, I get pissy. Really pissy. I try to make it a point to mention the things I like about PVP for that same reason.

This didn't start out as an I hate Scott Kurtz site. A lot of reactionary BS from us and you sure has made it feel that way, though. The more you fight, the more we fight, and so on, and so on.

I don't know quite how to explain to you what is meant by "just ignoring it". Even after working in retail for a number of years, I still haven't mastered it. But, I can tell you that people go off on each other for reasons not having to do with one another. If nobody let's it go, nothing turns into something. And, no one knows why.

Now, I am going to log off for the night (EST, and all). Maybe this will all make sense to me tomorrow.

R.W.McGee said...

Brett Schiller (Sage) said...

RW I owe you a beer if you get to Philly :)


heh, sounds good. I have a step-sister going to Gettysburg college next year...so don't think I won't try and take you up on that =)

Brett Schiller (Sage) said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Brett Schiller (Sage) said...

RW I'm moving to my first home about an hour west of Philly. Just give me some notice and I'll show you around the local brews.

Brett Schiller (Sage) said...

I'd like to give OriginalJes a nice applause for a) Rocky Balboa, quality movie surprisingly so after Rocky 5 b) his job as a draftsman, which makes my job sound lazy :)

Ok hopefully thats enough excitement for today from everyone. Night peoples!

A Nonny Mouse said...

Man, there's always too much to read here whenever Scott comes around. Then you get through it all and it turns out to have been the same old rubbish.

That's a nice shade of blue on the guy's shirt in the third panel of today's comic.

TheOriginalJes said...

Takes One To Know One - I wasn't impressed at first. But the more I read it, the more that last panel really pushes through with it's many layers.

Layers, as I see them -

1- A portrait view, with good expression (utilizing the latest in Magoo eyes), which conveys exactly how Robbie describes himself;

2- A poignant title that didn't give away the punchline, yet has it's own double entendre;

3- The possibility that Robbie may now truly understand what Jase had been trying to tell him 6+/- strips ago.

In regards to Magoo - The last panel has some really good shading and linework for Robbie's eyes. And since his eyes are open in panels 1 & 2, there's an available direct comparison to really highlight how Robbie feels.

But, I'm sure he'll get over all of that really fast. Considering that Robbie seemed to be quite content with who he is during the aftermath of Brent and Jade's wedding.

Either this strip was prepared well in advance of yesterday, or a nerd fight really brings out the talent. IMHO.

TheOriginalJes said...

P.S. - Some 5 o'clock shadow would have really helped to sell the "grizzled".

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